Visions of the Future
Daniel 7-8

The Book of Daniel shows us the resulting verdicts of history. As God shows us that all history is “His story,” we realize that our decisions on earth greatly influence what happens in the end. Daniel will close with this message in chapter 12. We will allow another to further explain what is so apparent: how we live, how we life or do not live out our lives shape our destiny. Prophecy helps us to not make the wrong decisions because of deception. It clarifies all the main facts right before our eyes.

As we go over these next couple of chapters, keep your focus on the decision God is encouraging you to make. The clearer your decision to follow Him faithfully without compromise will enable you to live out a more vibrant life. Your present decisions affect how you live. How you live reveal what you believe. What you believe shapes your destiny, either everlasting reproach or everlasting life.

 

A. Unity from Diversity

Although many people contest the unity and authorship of Daniel, the book is clearly written by Daniel. We can understand why they would object. If Daniel wrote it, then there is a living God and a judgment. Natural man does not like this so they persist in coming up with ideas challenging the unity of Daniel.

There are two overarching outlines that affirm this unity. We must not accept the simplistic notion that the first part of the book was written by one author and the other because of its predictive nature by another author after the predicted events have occurred. There is no division line because there are two ways this tremendous book was written.

Linguistic Outline

 

We first have the linguistic or language outline. Daniel starts off in Hebrew (chapter 1), changes to Aramaic (chapters 2-7), the language of the nations at that time, and then finally reverts  back to using Hebrew (chapters 8-12). He does not intermix them but uses them in different sections.

This outline clearly shows God’s command of time. We have first God’s dealings of His people in His land, but then by His hand of discipline, they are dispersed in a foreign land. But then as the book continues, they again by God’s promises return back to their land.

The Book of Daniel was written for those who wonder about God’s love when things are going rough. I hear Christians saying that a loving God would not allow this or that. Well they need to think twice. God ordains discipline even for His children.God wants us to question not His love or power during such situations but whether we have been obedient and devoted to Him. As we go on, Daniel is going to remind us that these terrorist attacks are just the beginning of trouble.

This linguistic outline reminds us that God’s people do not belong to the world. We are chosen by God, saved by God and one day brought to God’s presence. This is not our home. Jesus told His disciples that what they did to Him, they would do to His disciples.

Whenever we lose our bearings, the Book of Daniel tells us to keep two points in perspective: the beginning and the end. Everything makes sense if we can keep our calling in Christ and the return of Christ in mind. If we don’t, then we will get caught up in the traffic of the world.

Chronological Outline

There is also a chronological or a time outline. This outline traces two time tracks, different in content and purpose but similar in design. Both sections start with events in Babylon and end with events in Persia. Chapters 1-6 form one time track and chapters 7-12 are another. Together they provide a set. Each is important to the understanding and interpretation of the other. Chapter 7 is not out of sequence  but starts the beginning of the second Babylon–Persia outline.

The first six chapters are rooted in the earth: filled with challenging real life situations. Daniel and his three friends lived in very hostile times. Here in these chapters we find that our life’s devotion is comprised of many small decisions to be faithful to the Lord.

Remember the decision of the foods, the dream Daniel had to tell to the emperor, the fiery furnace, the king’s morphing into a beast, the hand drawing on the wall and lastly in chapter six the lion’s den which Daniel was thrown into? Can you forget them? These events are vivid, challenging and austere. Don’t they remind you of scenes from modern cinema? But they are real. They convince us that secularism (that which denies God’s participation in this world and therefore any sense of accountability) is an outright lie for God delivered those who trusted Him.

Chapters 1-6 are like the roots of a great tree with real people and events. Chapters 7-12 are the branches stretched out into the heavens. These visions are passed on only to those searching for the doorway and daring to step into the esoteric writings. Daniel is no longer interacting with people on earth but with angels in the heavenlies. These visions are primarily for God’s people facing difficult times in the distant future. This once-closed book was opened long ago.

Although we might be tempted to disassociate these odd visions from place and time, God has not allowed us to.  Daniel was a real person with many experience with both kings on earth as well as with the messengers of the Great King.

These two overlapping outlines virtually prove Daniel to have been written by one person. The Book of Daniel is ‘ tamper-proof.’ They work in conjunction to help us remember that God is in charge of time. History is literally ‘His story.’ Events in heaven shape what happens on earth. We ought then rightly respond to the God of heavens by living rightly on earth.

B. Prophecy of Daniel 7

Chapter 7 interestingly revisits Nebuchadnezzar’s dream in Daniel 2. A new picture is presented to us but the instructions are the same. Each chapter’s dream or vision has four main significant parts or images. Each is undermined by the succeeding event. They are, in each case, ultimately destroyed by God's own special work.

The dream of Daniel 2 utilizes the body image: a gold head, silver chest and arms, the bronze belly and thighs and lastly the legs of iron. The vision of Daniel 7 uses four different beasts: a lion, bear, leopard and fourthly the beast that is not named. Look at the simple chart below.

Daniel 2	Kingdom	Daniel 7
Gold head	Babylon	Lion
Silver chest and arms	Media-Persia	Bear
Bronze belly and thighs	Greek	Leopard
Iron legs and interesting feet	Roman or perhaps Islamic Caliphate	Beast
The Rock	Kingdom of God	Ancient of Days

By the way, we should not conclude from this that there were no other events going on in the world outside of what is presented here. Not at all. We must remember that this revealed history revolves around God’s people. We see those countries and persons that affect God’s people are discussed, the more impact the more central those countries are focused on. China, for example, was active during these days. Confucius was said to be born in 551 B.C. which is much around these times. Such cultures and societies existed, but they had no bearing on the nation of Israel at that time.

Although we gain a clear enough picture of who is in control of the world through the first part of Daniel, in this later portion we see that God even carefully oversees the future. In Daniel 9, for example, we see the angel Gabriel speaking to Daniel. He was the angel overseeing the nation Israel.

Let’s briefly review what is being described here in Daniel 7. We already know that the lion with wings refers to Babylon. Daniel in Daniel 2:36-38 declares this interpretation. “You are the head of gold.” History unfolds the succession of empires ruling over similar places. Such pictures can be found in  any ancient history book. Media-Persia overthrew Babylon. In 8:20 and 21 we see that the second kingdom is affirmed to be the kings Media and Persia while the third beast is said to be Greece.

Daniel 8

Let us pause here for a moment and look at chapter 8 before coming back to this vision in chapter 7. The vision of Daniel 8 focuses on the transfer of power from the Media-Persian empire to the Greeks and therefore an expanded view of this second and third beast. The ram’s two horns stand for Media Persia. The shifting of power slowly went from Media to Persia, which is the longer horn (Dan 8:3). But then a male goat from the west (Greece) went over the ground and knocked at the ram (Media-Persia) and destroyed it (8:5-7).

The male goat, though, who quickly conquered the huge kingdom suddenly died. Daniel 8:8 tells us in detail of this event where the mighty Alexander the Great suddenly died at 33. Having no descendants, the empire was broken up by his four generals into four areas, each of which became its own kingdom. The fourth kingdom, Syria, will be spoken in more detail in 11:1-4

Daniel has two major means to encourage His people to be faithful and true to Him.

1)    He speaks about His glorious power and authority. We will come back to that in a moment when we further discuss the Rock or the Ancient of Days.

2)    He shows how He is in control of history. Even evil is constrained by God.

a.     The four empires are all smitten by God’s kingdom.

b.     The power of the  arrogant horn bringing persecution against Israel is limited.

c.     God has limited evil by time (end of chapter 9).

d.     God’s plan of triumph always wins in the end.

I suppose the theme is that if we know there is a good end, we can endure anything. This arrogant  horn is mentioned in several places through Daniel. The term is used 16 times in chapters 7 and 8. The theme of this horn is much more discussed in chapter 11. It is the horn which stands for the most violent oppressions against God’s people. Some people refer to this leader as the antichrist.

So we see three times this arrogant one is spoken of.

Daniel 7:8, 11, 21-25	Daniel 8:8-14, 19-26	Daniel 11:20-45
Out from Rome (Nero)	Out from Greece (Antiochus)	Then and end time

 

Daniel makes his point well. Each time this horn is referred to, it is down with more intensity and description. A horn of course speaks of the authority or power of a kingdom which is the ruler himself. We have no way to escape the intrusion of this one into our history. How we would like to eliminate war! Or wouldn’t it be grand to have Christians to be able through the Gospel to conquer war with peace? But these are temporary advances if it is all gained. The grand hope of God’s people are not in this world. History is to be ruined in each age, no matter how many promises of hope through politicians, the policies of the United Nations or increased wealth of the nations. Power not under allegiance to God always becomes corrupt.

For us the most troubling is not that Rome had a horn or Greece. That is past history. God’s people were slaughtered. I will leave another discussion (chapter 11) to elaborate on this. Each time it gets more intense. Until we find the words “at the end time” in 11:40 where we can no longer dismiss a possible future arrogant horn. History itself seems to be bent on subduing God’s people by an arrogant leader. We know this is because Satan is also involved in influencing men to gain his own devilish purposes.

Application. What does this mean practically for us? We should try to prevent such oppressive power, but in the end we need to accept that in some places and at some times the rights for Christians or Israelites will not be recognized. We have seen this so clearly with Hitler during World War II. His oppressive tactics led to the slaughter of millions. We know even in these evil times God is in control. We might need to give up our wealth, health or even our lives so we can live without compromise before such wicked rulers. We need to accept this possibility and be brave soldiers of Christ

This evil pattern will not only repeat but become more and more oppressive.  This does not mean that God is not in control. God is in control and will judge this one. But let us approach this subject through a different lens. Let us go back to the Rock and the Ancient of Days to understand more what these figures represent. They are critical to understanding our own relationship to God and the world today.

The Fourth Kingdom – Rome

The Seleucid Empire that arose out of Greece produced the terrible persecutor of the Jews. He indeed was one of the antichrists. But something was special about this fourth kingdom of Rome. Daniel describes the fourth beast as he saw it in 7:19-22. 7:23-26 is the angel’s description of it. It again follows what we see in Daniel 2, both the description and the interpretation.  I suppose our problem is that we wish the interpretation would be even more clear.

What is so special about this fourth kingdom that Daniel in 7:19 “desired to know the exact meaning of the fourth?”  There are at least four significant similarities.

* Please note: I am increasingly being convinced that the Roman Empire is not the world kingdom that was spoke of. Joel Richardson and others have properly questioned whether the Roman Empire really could fill this spot as it was centralized to the west rather than having its dominion over the land that was first in Nebuchadnezzar's mind (his own, i.e. Tigris–Euphrates area) but Rome did not reach that far. Today we see that the Islamic caliphate did dominate the same lands as it is attempting again to do now. Moreover its two sects can help us understand the irregular composition of the feet.

• A more terrible kingdom

Daniel 7:23 says, “The fourth beast will be a forth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms, and it will devour the whole earth and tread I down and crush it.” A ferocious animal couldn’t represent its terror.

• Fragmented

As in Daniel 2 we see that ten kings will arise, then another and that one will subdue three kings. This beast had ten horns while the figure image had ten toes.

• An arrogant leader

This particular leader that would arise will oppress the saints in a most horrible way. 7:21 says, “I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them.”

• God’s Kingdom overcome

It is at this time the transfer of the kingdom will come to the saints. God will intervene. Weapons, the United Nations, political cleverness will not overcome this wickedness, but only God’s kingdom.

Summary

Some speakers are dogmatic on how this will turn out in the end.   They go into great detail as to what will happen in the future. Let me just say that speakers are at time dogmatically wrong. Many of the 1970s details re no longer applicable. We need to be careful not to go overboard. On the other hand, there seems to be a real future threat. I myself will join the saints and “watch and pray.”

Three thoughts that arise from the scripture do help us think of the final days of the earth.

(1) Firstly, there will be a renewing of the old kingdoms. Daniel 7:12 gives us a clue that gives much cause for speculation as to what the end of time will look at on earth.

Then I kept looking because of the sound of the boastful words which the horn was speaking; I kept looking until the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to the burning fire. As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time. (Daniel 7:11-12)

It seems that at the end of history as we know it on earth, there will be a period of time, possibly seven years, where these old nations will again gain strength. Iraq has its roots in the old Babylon empire, Iran in the old Persia empire and Syria in the Grecian empire. Israel itself has made a comeback which all seem what we might expect. Dogmatic assertions might sell books but it also leads to error.

Much more time is spent on these details in Revelation. They indicate that it was not just the ten Ceasars,  some of whom proclaimed themselves as gods, but it could refer to a future time yet. I take it as a pattern and that what has happened, will happen again but on a greater scale. The “ten” could possible stand for the EU (European Union) which  arose out of the Treaty of Rome, but now that it has many more members, this does not seem to be so. Or perhaps it refers to the ten economical districts of the world. Perhaps. Will these kings corule or rule in succession? It doesn’t matter too much for the one arrogant one that arises will come with persecution.

(2) The tribulation has continued on from Christ’s time. Persecution, pestilence, war and famine have struck at different places on earth. They still do. The last period of time, though, seems to face increased distress.

(3) The saints will be overcome by a wicked ruler that arises. This evil spirit has revealed itself in numerous individuals even at the present.

I recently read of one person’s testimony that when she was small, her teacher told her to wait until everything was quiet and see if she could find  a big black book. She found one and told her teacher. That was the last day she ever saw her parents.

The key fact is that we understand that this wicked one has limited authority. Even if we would face such persecution, we would be faithful. Another picture out of North Korea is when the Christians were told to deny Christ. A big pot of molten metal was brought by. He told the other prisoners to pour that upon the kneeling Christians. The stench from burning bodies was horrible. But there we have some brothers and sisters who like Daniel and his friends did not compromise their faith. They held fast. Their faith was more important than their bodies. The body they may kill but the soul no one can take. If the evil one does arise around us, will you be faithful? Have you made a decision to live faithfully no matter what?

My greatest fear is that what God has used the books of Daniel of Revelation to do has been turned back by popular books and movies that show a rapture will take all of God’s people away before the great tribulation. I fear this because it counters all the teachings of the scriptures. They hint that a loving God will rescue His people from such situations. But our great and compassionate loving God actually will take us through these times. You read here or elsewhere. God sometimes chooses to give His people the same opportunity as His Son to show our allegiance by giving up our live for Him.  If God would do this with His Son, might He not do it with us? Most definitely. We rather not have these terrible persecutors arise but the scriptures most clearly saw they will arise. God is still in control. Let us be faithful and not be deceived by these popular books that say God would not allow His people to suffer.

We will know its full interpretation when needed. It is good enough to know there are patterns that develop and that we need to be prepared.

Let’s move on to the most important part of this section.

C. God’s Kingdom

Let me ask you directly, “Are we now in the kingdom of God?” or is this something of the future?

Just as the linguistic outline, the outline by used language, shows us that no matter what happens on the earth, whether a nation grows mighty and oppressive or another kingdom takes power, everything will in the end be affected by God’s great kingdom. Those kingdom’s will turn  to rubble. They have in a sense all been buried in desert sands or only have ruins to show for them now.

But what do we see? We see God’s kingdom. Christ has initiated God’s kingdom on earth. I understand that numerous preachers might think that God’s kingdom is only in the future. I do not see that this is what is being spoken of here nor is it so stated in the New Testament. I will grant them that the Kingdom of God is not fully realized on earth. The kingdom is His people spread all over the globe. In this sense it is truly the multinational kingdom with one Lord to whom His people pay absolute obedience.  But before we go on, let us first look at the two texts and then some New Testament verses.

Daniel 2:44-45 states

And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever. Inasmuch as you saw that a stone was cut out of the mountain without hands and that it crushed the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold, the great God has made known to the king what will take place in the future; so the dream is true, and its interpretation is trustworthy.”

Daniel speaks of God’s kingdom in two sections that is interesting divided by a brief section on this antichrist or lawless one that 2 Thessalonians mentions.

I kept looking Until thrones were set up, And the Ancient of Days took His seat; His vesture was like white snow, And the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was ablaze with flames, Its wheels were a burning fire.  A river of fire was flowing And coming out from before Him; Thousands upon thousands were attending Him, And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him; The court sat, And the books were opened. (Daniel 7:9-10)

After another very brief allusion to the antichrist and his fall, we see another section further describing God’s  kingdom.

I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations, and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed. (Daniel 7:13-14).

There is a debate on whether this is something still in the future or something in the present.

New Testament on Kingdom of God

I encourage you to do your own study on the  kingdom of God. Let me mention just a few verses. Jesus again and again mentioned the kingdom of God and  used the designation “the Son of Man.” Notice how it says that the Son of Man “came up” to the Ancient of Days. This is understood to be Christ when He finished His work on earth and ascended to gain all authority.

Where there is a kingdom, there is a king. Jesus the Messiah is this Son of Man referred to in 7:13. Almost all of its 84 times it is used in the New Testament was used by Jesus Himself to describe himself.

And no one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven, even the Son of Man. (John 3:13)

And in the middle of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across His breast with a golden girdle. (Revelation 1:13).

If You are the Christ, tell us.” But He said to them, “If I tell you, you will not believe; and if I ask a question, you will not answer. But from now on THE SON OF MAN WILL BE SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND of the power OF GOD.  (Luke 22:67-69)

The kingdom of God is often mentioned in the New Testament. This kingdom is not only something present but a kingdom that has overcome the evil one and been set up. Its full realization is still to be seen but that day will come when Christ returns in His glory.

The first verse that mentions kingdom of God in the New Testament is in Matthew.

But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. (Matthew 12:28).

Clearly Jesus cast out demons. God’s heavenly forces were starting to overcome and push back the full reign of darkness over the earth. Some suggest that God’s kingdom is connected with some future millennium. I suggest they have some big biblical hurdles to limit the kingdom of God in this way.

And He sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God, and to perform healing. (Luke 9:2)

In this verse we find that Jesus’ mission was to proclaim the kingdom of God. To the Jew, what He was saying was very clear. The gospels describe how one may become part of the kingdom of God. What are the requirements? Maybe you will be surprised at the shape Jesus’ army takes.

And turning His gaze on His disciples, He began to say, “Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. (Luke 6:20)

Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it at all.” (Mark 10;15)

Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:5)

We have absolutely no indication that the kingdom of God is something merely for the future. We must now become members of His kingdom. We become members by humbling ourselves and recognizing that we have spent our life without faithful recognition to the King of Kings. We need to repent and find cleansing in Christ’s blood. We are foolish to think that God’s kingdom is merely on earth. But as we read in Daniel and elsewhere, Christ’s kingdom goes on forever.

And they will come from east and west, and from north and south, and will recline at the table in the kingdom of God. (Luke 13:29)

Some things will change but the fact that it is now established by Christ’s work, and now He sits on the right hand of God, is forever. Nothing shall touch that. We find that God’s kingdom goes beyond life as we know it. It is not just the millennium. We need our new bodies for the full appearance of God’s kingdom.

Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. (1 Corinthians 15:50)

Here are a few verses that help us to remember this kind of description of God’s work on earth. Jesus  often uses this phrase but it becomes less spoken of in the scriptures. Perhaps because the emperor of Rome in several cases called himself a God and would not tolerate any other kingdom. In any case, we see it used but more rarely after the Gospels.

For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. (Romans 14:17)

And he entered the synagogue and continued speaking out boldly for three months, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God. (Acts 19:8)

God’s kingdom was apparent by God’s work. Those in oppressive societies perhaps better understand this notion of kingdom. But if I ask you  who is King, who would you say? Jesus, is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. He does not need to be elected. Right now we reign with Him as Ephesians 2 states.

I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate, that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, He will bring about at the proper time--He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords; who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen. (1 Timothy 6:13-16)

Well where is His kingdom? We can ask the same thing regarding the church?  We are more like the Levites  who were distributed across the land. We do not control countries. Jesus Himself said my kingdom is not of this world.

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting, that I might not be delivered up to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm. (John 18:36)

Well then, who is the kingdom

And from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us, and released us from our sins by His blood,  and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father; to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. (Revelation 1:5-6)

What then is our duty as His kingdom? We are to expand His kingdom. Please note how all authority has already been given to Christ.

And when they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,  them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” (Matthew 28:17-20).

Let us summarize by reviewing some main conclusions.

• God’s kingdom has come. If you have not joined it, then you stand in a very risky place.

• God’s kingdom is not for the timid. Like warriors they need to stand up to oppressive situations.

• We join God’s kingdom by humbling ourselves and like a child believe in God.

• God’s kingdom reveals itself through God’s people. Christ rules through His people.

• God’s kingdom is forever. Christ is now King and will forever reign. Christ therefore exercises his dominion through His people now. God wants His kingdom to be more apparent on earth.

May thy kingdom come on earth even as it  is in heaven.

• We are now agents, foreign agents in this world. Wherever  we are, God’s light shines through. In the world to come, we will see His full power and glory. There will then  not be allowed any opposition  to His rule as He now does.

Summary

Freedom and rights are being swallowed up quicker than ever in this war against terrorism. Right now the governments are aiming at those who are out there, but one day it seems very clear that they might think the Christians are the cause of the world’s problems. We might be the target. Just as Nero persecuted the Christians so another leader might persecute us. We aer to stand strong. We have enough to know that whatever forces might oppose God’s kingdom, it will be but temporary. If we belong to Christ’s kingdom now, we will belong to it forever. We need not fear loss of life or weath but only of our faith.

Just as Daniel had to make a decision, so do you. Even now you face pressures. You are encouraged to make a little compromise. You must refuse or repent from it if you have fallen. Stand up and refuse to  compromise to the world pressures around you. What pressures do you now feel? What pressures might you meet up with in the future. Right now, we want to make a decision to follow the Lord no matter where that path may lead us.

Daniel Bible Study Questions

1. What are the two outlines of Daniel? Be able to explain them.

2. How do these two outlines silence those who espouse multiple authors for Daniel?

3. How does the angel interpret the visions of Daniel 7-8?

4. How can we further apply them to our present situation?

5. What are the reasons these visions are given to God’s people?

6. Where in the Book of Daniel does this theme of an arrogant horn appear?

7. What does the horn represent? What clues does this give for what Christians might face in the close of this age?

8. What was special about the fourth kingdom?

9. What clues might this fourth kingdom give for the final days on earth?

10. When does God’s kingdom begin? How do we know?

11. How can we advance God’s kingdom?

12. What decisions can you now make that will help  firm up your willingness to withstand the temptations of compromise?

13. Does the fourth beast of Daniel 2 refer to the Roman Empire or the Islamic Caliphate? Defend your position.